BIRTHFIT Podcast Episode_51: Marc David of Institute for the Psychology of Eating
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What's up, BIRTHFIT community? This is Dr. Lindsey Mathews, your BIRTHFIT founder. Today I have a very special guest on the podcast with me. His name is Marc David and he is the founder and primary teacher of the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. He is a leading visionary, teacher and consultant in nutritional psychology and the author of classic groundbreaking and bestselling books Nourishing Wisdom and The Slow Down Diet. For over three decades -- yup, three decades -- Marc has been an innovator in eating psychology and nutrition. I am blown away at the information he has for us today and the information that he and his team put out into this world. So go to psychologyofeating.com, find them on Facebook and other social media avenues, and I promise you will just get lost in all that information. So enjoy the podcast.
Well, I'm so glad you could join me on The BIRTHFIT Podcast.
Marc: Yay! Me too.
Lindsey: Yay! I don't know if you know that you're on The BIRTHFIT Podcast, but Melissa Hemphill who trained under you speaks very highly of you, and she said I just have to get you on here.
Marc: Lucky me. I feel lucky. And I know I'm on The BIRTHFIT Podcast, so life is good.
Lindsey: Well, for those listening -- and this is not a live audience, just so you know. This will go up in probably about two to three weeks. But for those listening, can you tell them what you do and what the Eating Psychology Institute is?
Marc: Yes, happy to do that. So the Institute for the Psychology of Eating, that's my sort of baby that I gave birth to about a dozen years ago, and it really is the teaching organization that puts forth the body of work that I've created over the years, which is a really addressing who we are as eaters because what's happening is there's so many people out there who have challenges around weight, around body image, around overeating, or binge eating, or emotional eating, or endless dieting, and they don't necessarily have an eating disorder, but so many of us, and this especially impacts women, are gripped by different eating challenges. So the body of work that I teach addresses that in a very, I'd love to say, holistic way. I've been in this field forever. I think I've been doing this since I popped out of the womb.
Lindsey: Yeah. When did you first have an interest in -- would you call it Institute of Psychology of Eating or --?
Marc: Institute for the Psychology of Eating, yeah. Eating psychology, I first got interested in nutrition when I was five years old, and this was back in the days when really it wasn't even a conversation or a topic. I was born very intensely asthmatic, and allergic, and immunocompromised, and almost died a handful of times in childhood, and my parents took me from doctor to doctor and nothing helped. Literally I was five years old and somehow I heard a rumor that fruits and vegetables were good for you. I was raised in the time when junk food and TV dinners first came out, so I don't think I ever ate anything real. My mother complied. She thought I was cute and bought me a bunch of fresh fruits and fresh vegetables, and coincidence or not, my health started to change. From that moment, I was gripped with the magic that what we put into our bodies has a profound impact. Especially for a child's mind, there's a sense of magic to it.
Anyway, that interest in nutrition really flowered and it became what I studied in college and in graduate school. Inevitably, when you learn enough nutrition and you talk to enough people and clients and patients about their eating challenges, about their food challenges, it eventually brings you to the fact that you could tell somebody what to eat and what to do and what not to eat, and it doesn't mean they're going to do that. We are more than just a bunch of nutritional requirements. We're human beings that have a very interesting and complex relationship with food. Once I realized that I needed to learn eating psychology in order to help people with nutrition, that's when I was off to the races with that.
Lindsey: So did you learn like the standard registered dietician route, nutritionist things in America, or did you go straight towards the kind of emotional connection, psychology connection?
Marc: Well, I started out in the nutrition universe, so yes, I didn't get a dietitian college degree, but I did everything in the realm of biology and chemistry and focused on, yes, nutrition. So I did a lot of advanced coursework in college and graduate school. Probably by the early 1980s, I had read every nutrition book that you can get off the popular shelf as well as in the realm of textbooks because, quite frankly, there wasn't a lot.
I was able to spend five years literally reading everything, and at some point, here I am looking in the mirror and saying okay. And I see clients and patients and I tell them what to do, and they're smart, and they're educated, and they're motivated, and they come back a week later and say, "I know what I was supposed to do. I know what you told me. I just can't do it." And from that place, I thought, oh, I'll just study eating psychology. This was also back in the mid '80s. No, early '80s, I'm sorry. And then what I realized then was that there wasn't any. I could find an internship in anorexia. I could find an eating disorder clinic where I can intern and learn about bulimia, but nobody knew anything.
Marc: Everything was so new back then, and in a strange way quite frankly, it still is when it comes to eating disorder.
Lindsey: I was going to say there's not a lot out there still.
Marc: No, there really isn't. But what I learned very quickly was okay, anorexia is interesting to me, and bulimia is interesting to me, and extreme obesity is interesting to me; but at that point, that was affecting only 1% of the population, now maybe 4% or 5% of the population. What about the rest of us? What about everybody else that you know that I know that complains about 5 pounds, 10 pounds, 20 pounds, 30 pounds, people who might have the perfect body but have a very imperfect body image? People who complain about overeating or binge eating or emotional eating, what about them?
Lindsey: Is that when you set everything up, your curriculum and everything?
Marc: Well no. At that point, I decided to go back to school to learn psychology to get a master's degree in it and just begin to learn on my own. I decided I would write the book that I wanted to read, but in order to write the book that I needed to read, I needed to understand eating psychology. So I literally quite frankly learned on the job because I was passionate, I was interested, I knew enough nutrition, I knew enough psychology, and I just started working with people. I started having support groups. I put an ad, this was before the internet, I put an ad in the classifieds in the newspaper and I said, "Eating psychology support group free four weeks." I would start humbly and I had no idea if anybody would show up. About 20 people came. We ended up being together for almost a year.
Lindsey: Oh, my gosh.
Marc: I had every possible eating issue you can imagine in that room. Some of the skinniest humans you've ever seen. Some of the largest, heaviest humans you've ever seen. Women who were beautiful who thought they weren't, men who were bulimic. I learned on the job, and we all learned from each other. So anyway, that took me about a good six or seven years to develop work, and then I wrote my first book and years later created the institute.
Lindsey: So is the institute something that people come and study with you? Or is it done via online? Or how does that work?
Marc: It is 99% online. We are an online educational company. We're actually a fully regulated and approved occupational school.
Marc: And one of the first occupational schools that's literally online. So our core professional program, it's an online distance learning eight-month program. We certify people as eating psychology coaches. They learn how to work with all the most common eating challenges, non-eating disorder challenges that any practitioner would see.
Lindsey: It sounds fascinating, and I'm so glad I get to talk to you right now. So let's talk about women, obviously, because there's a lot that listen to this podcast. Melissa has mentioned the Princess/Queen in training kind of archetypes that you talk about. Can you discuss those a little bit?
Marc: Yes, I can. I'm always looking for ways to best understand who we are and who our psychology is and what is driving us, and what I've been noticing for many years is that, first of all, probably over the years, 95% of my clients and 95% of my students have all been women. So I noticed that women have an interesting and let's say special relationship with food. So that initially captured my attention. Women have a fascinating relationship with food.
What I also started to notice was that many of my women clients, who were in their 40s, and their 50s, and their 60s, and their 70s sounded like my clients who were in their teens and their 20s. And when I say "sounded like them" they were talking like teenagers wanting to lose 10 pounds from here and 5 pounds from there so guys would like me better, even if they were married for 40 years. They don't need guys to like them better. I noticed that the same ways that my teenage clients and my 20-year-old female clients were acting about their body image, I noticed that many of my older women clients were literally saying the same things to themselves, and it was like I would be talking to a 50- or 60-year-old woman who sounded to me like a teenager. And then I started to understand archetypes better. Archetypes are just timeless forms. King is an archetype, Queen is an archetype. Once you understand it, and you learn about it, you kind of have a sense of what it is. A Wizard is an archetype. A Bad Guy is an archetype. So they are timeless forms that exist long after you and I are gone.
We've had fairytales forever, kings and queens, and princesses and princes, and what I started noticing was that those royal archetypes are very useful in understanding our psychology, because in those archetypes, when -- let me just tell you the understanding that I operate from, which is when, let's say, in this case a woman, when she's about zero to I'm going to say 30 -- well, zero to mid 30s, I'm going to call her a princess. And not in a pejorative negative sense, because that word isn't used graciously these days; it's used as an insult. But a Princess simply means the young woman. And in the Princess stage, a young woman is learning about herself. She doesn't know who she is. She's young. She's immature. And if you watch little girls, you watch young women, they need outside approval, they need you to tell them, "Yes, you're wonderful! You're lovable, you're beautiful, you're great!" And her job is different. She's not ready to have a family; she's not ready to have all kinds of responsibilities when she's 15 years old because she's in the Princess stage of learning and grounding in who she is, and yes, getting input from the outside, "You're wonderful, you're beautiful."
And then at some point, we enter the Queen stage, which is really we fully embody in it right around 50 for a woman. From around aged 40 to 50 I call it Queen-in-Training. It's not a Princess anymore and it's not quite a Queen. But by the time you hit Queen age, you should be sitting on your throne and I'm saying just from a personal development standpoint, you should be sitting on your throne. Queens, when you think of a good queen, a queen sits on her throne. She gives to her queendom. She's wise. She knows who she is. Imagine if a queen was sitting on her throne and saying, "Okay, everybody, do I look good enough? Do I need to lose two pounds from over here? Do you think I eat too much?" If a queen said that, you wouldn't listen to her. You wouldn't follow her. She wouldn't be effective.
So what I've noticed is there's a lot of women of Queen age, who are acting like they're functioning as if they're Princesses, because they've never made that transition, and they're locked into a Princess stage because of their relationship with food and body. It keeps them immature, and unwise, and young, and it has women believing that their value is in their body despite the fact that they're 50 or 60 or 70, and that they will be more loveable and honorable if they lose some random amount of weight. That's not a good queen. We need our queens to own themselves, own their bodies, and let go of the perfectionism that often occurs in the Princess stage. Remember the old fairytale with the princess and the pea under her mattress?
Marc: In a lot of ways, one of the symbologies in there is the princess and the pea, like the princess can feel something under the mattress, it's a little rock, it's a little pea, and they keep putting these mattresses on top but she could still feel it. So it's the sense that in that young stage the princess wants everything just perfect and right.
Lindsey: Right. That's good.
Marc: And it can cause a lot of waste of everybody's energy including her own.
Lindsey: For sure. That's brilliant. How early, and I think that you know --
Marc: You know, it's already there are popular polls and studies that are done which will show that girls four years old are already thinking about body parts that they have that they don't like and they're already claiming, "I'm on a diet."
Marc: That they are or they aren't because that's what they hear. They constantly hear, "Oh, I'm on a diet, I'm on a diet." And if they go on any form of social media or -- children, listen, children are brilliant observers. They're poor interpreters. They can't interpret everything. But when they hear their older sisters, cousins, their mother, their grandmother saying, "Oh, I'm on a diet," they want to mimic what their mom or their sisters or their cousins or their friends are saying.
Lindsey: Right. That makes so much sense.
Marc: It starts that mentality at a very young age and it's awful, and it starts this mentality that I'm not good enough as I am. I have to change something in order to be okay.
Lindsey: Yeah. I got a thousand questions, but how important, like if we want to take it back even further than four years, how important would you say are some lessons during the prenatal and postpartum period for a woman and/or her fetus baby during that time?
Marc: Well, in my belief system personally, and we don't have when it comes to eating challenges, I haven't seen any studies or any proofs around this, but it is my firm belief we do have plenty of information out there that the mother's experience while her child is in utero will impact that child. What the mother eats, what the mother thinks, what the mother listens to in terms of music, her level of stress, her level of relaxation. There are so many epigenetic factors. There are so many lifestyle factors that are going to impact a very, very sensitive and impressionable bunch of developing fetal nervous system tissue. How could it not? Really. So I believe that a mother's relationship with food will impact her child's relationship with food.
Can that start in utero? I believe it can, because I will tell you, I have observed clinically, observationally, anecdotally, I've observed many people over the years who will tell me the stories of how when they were in utero here's what the mom was doing. She was on some crazy diet throughout pregnancy because she didn't want to gain weight. There are a lot of women out there who don't want to get "fat" during the pregnancy, believe it or not. So they will undereat. And oftentimes what I've noticed is the mothers who have undereaten during pregnancy so as to not have a big weight gain in pregnancy, the daughters have eating disorders, because they've come to me. I've spoken to them. So any scientist will tell you, well, that's a bunch of anecdotal evidence, and I love when a scientist says that to me because I will look right back at them and say, "You bet!" and that's the most powerful form of evidence that there is, stories, because we're human, and all scientific discoveries start as an observation and a hypothesis. It starts as a story and it starts with somebody smart enough to observed it and then okay, let's do an experiment. So I don't know if I answered your question.
Lindsey: No, definitely.
Marc: I'm very passionate about that.
Lindsey: I love it. Okay, so I am surrounded by juice cleanses and fad diets in Los Angeles, and I see this a lot during the postpartum period. This just crushes me, but I at least have some insight as to okay, don't do this. But how would you tell or how would you communicate to somebody that hey, this is not the brightest time to do a juice cleanse, a fad diet during the infant's first year of life?
Marc: It's fascinating because especially if the mother is breastfeeding, she wants to have a full complement of a variety of healthy foods to ensure that her body's getting enough so her child gets enough through her body. So bottom line is you start to cleanse and detox while you are breastfeeding, there's every good chance that the byproducts of detoxing, what you're literally trying to detox out of your system can very potentially go into the milk. So that would actually make no sense to me whatsoever.
The other piece is that I think what's the reason? I'm always wanting to know reasons people have for what they're doing. Somebody could say, "Oh, well I want to cleanse." Usually often, oftentimes, not always but oftentimes, cleansing and detoxing for many women is codeword for I want to lose weight.
Lindsey: Yeah, for sure.
Marc: So I identify, if I see that my client is going in that direction, I'm going to say something. I'm going to raise my hand and say, you really don't want to cleanse and detox. What you really want to do is you want to lose some weight. So can you own that? Can you acknowledge that? Can you admit that? Because then you can go about it perhaps in the right time and in the right way as opposed to being undercover about it and doing it incorrectly.
Lindsey: Yeah, so often, and I always this is more common maybe three months postpartum to six months postpartum, women want to lose the extra 10, 15, 20 pounds, and I think that's when the most common fad diets, cleanses, those things happen. But yeah, it just doesn't make any sense to me.
Marc: No, it doesn't. Again, where it makes sense is women are trying to lose weight. It's for weight loss. And oftentimes that trumps just about everything for a lot of people.
Lindsey: Can you touch on anything -- we have a lot of women that maybe they identify with being an athlete or being a competitive professional in their sport. And then when they get pregnant, and then this definitely has to do with the postpartum period and transitioning back in, but kind of the body image identity crisis there.
Marc: So the question is -- tell me what your question is around that?
Lindsey: Yeah, how does one cope with maybe losing their image, the image of their self shifting from this competitive super lean body type and then on the other side they're mom, maybe six months, and they don't have that body image that they once had?
Marc: Sure, sure, sure. I get it, yes. So for me, and I've dealt with this many, many times over the years. I'm going to bottom line it for you. Women have to mourn. They have to mourn the loss and they have to get with the program that I am letting something go. Be oh so clear about it. It's no different, I don't know, than if you're breaking up with somebody and you get there at some point, "I am breaking up with you. We're not sleeping together anymore and we're never going to sleep together anymore."
So what happens is a lot of people, a lot of women, yeah, they lose the body that they had when they were an athlete or a competitive athlete and they don't get over it because they haven't let it go. They want to have their cake and eat it too, which they can't. It's very hard to do both. It's very hard to be this competitive athlete and have this perfect body and then be a mom, or stay-at-home mom, or raising one or two or three or more kids, and then maybe perhaps you have a job, it's not easy. That's when a woman needs to mature quite frankly, and that's the conversation that I will have with them. Yeah, you're no longer that 21 year-old-college athlete. We have to say goodbye to her, like you actually have to say goodbye. What kind of ritual can we do? What kind of journaling can you do? What can you do that will ritualize it so you get that you're letting this go?
Might you come back to a little more exercise than you're doing right now at some point? Sure. But there's no way to sugarcoat this. It is a maturing process. We have to grow in character. Unfortunately, women are given so many messages from such a young age that your value is in your body, your value is in your body, that they've actually come to believe it that they have to live with this perfect body. Quite honestly, I see so many of those women who do have the body that they want but in a lot ways they're disembodied. They don't enjoy themselves, they don't enjoy their body. A lot of them lose their sensuality actually. They lose their sex drive because all their energy is going into this very tight approach to I got to tone my body, I got to make to look exactly how I want to look, and they just take all the sexy out of it.
Lindsey: Right. So that would create, yeah, definitely issues and wounds in and around the motherhood transition.
Marc: You got it.
Lindsey: A hot mess. Okay, so let me think. So we have a lot of women that -- and I would say not a lot but a fraction of our population still ask us about, and this is super specific, cravings and counting macros and things like that. What is your take on that specifically in regard to pregnancy and postpartum?
Marc: So you mentioned cravings, you mentioned counting macronutrients. Those to me can be two completely different topics. So can you help me understand better?
Lindsey: Yes, so cravings, if somebody has specific cravings during pregnancy, how do you approach that?
Marc: Okay, got it, got it, got it. I look at cravings as a three-fold possibility, and it's very simple. Humans will crave that which they need, that which their body is hungering for, that which their physiology is dreaming for. It's a feature that we see in animals. It's a feature that we see in humans. It's very well-documented. You could watch an animal. You go watch your own pet, you go watch a cat. They'll go munch on grass when they are sick. Dogs will eat clay. They'll eat pinecones. Animals have a very instinctive way of craving what they need. So humans will do that.
Humans have another thing. Humans will crave exactly what they don't need. Why? Because the body and the physiology and the nervous system can be easily fooled. If you're an alcoholic, you will crave alcohol. Does that mean that you need alcohol? No. The body has become attached to it. You can say addicted. But in the sense of cravings, we will get attached to certain foods and certain tastes because they make us feel good. It could be the junkiest food on the planet that will do no good for you and no good for your unborn child, except other than it makes me feel good when I eat it because taste can bring a tremendous amount of pleasure.
But taste is more than a sense. It's a form of intelligence, as is sight, as is hearing. It's not a sense; it's an intelligence. A big portion of your brain is allocated to taste and smell, so our intelligence for taste can be dumbed down. A lot of people who go from a junk food diet to a healthy diet report after a time that oh my God, I can never go back to the way I used to eat because they made their sense of taste more intelligent. So anyway.
So yes, humans will crave what they don't need and also humans will crave foods that they have very emotional association with. There are certain foods from your childhood. Certain foods might remind you your mother, your father, this great experience, that great experience. Oftentimes our cravings are associated with positive memories and that's why we crave that food, so during pregnancy and during anytime we have to learn how to play an experiment. So if I'm sitting here and I start to crave, I don't know, a bunch of junk food and fried food and nasty food, I'm probably smart enough to go that's probably not a craving that's going to benefit my body. But, you know, if you really want to try it out, go for it and tell me how you feel afterwards. So it's all about experimenting. Okay, you want to experiment with the craving, great. Eat it and see how you feel.
I love the idea of a woman paying attention to her body and experimenting with what she's craving during pregnancy because that's a time that we should have heightened awareness. A woman should be tuning in. So she should be listening to her body and asking it questions. And again, as I say, the tipoff point might be well, yeah, I'm craving five gallons of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream. Ah, maybe not.
Lindsey: Yeah, maybe not. So if somebody is in early pregnancy and maybe second trimester and maybe they just have an aversion toward meat or any kind of protein, how would you approach that?
Marc: I am all about inspiring women during pregnancy to do what's right for their child. Fine if you're not hungry, fine if you're constipated, fine if this food that you normally love that you know is good for you and nothing tastes good right now, yeah, we got to push through this a little bit because it's not about you anymore. It's about your child and it's a huge transition. So I never ever, ever, ever want to see women skimp on protein and healthy fat during their pregnancy, especially as you're saying, protein in the last trimester. They have to figure out either on their own or with a little help okay, what are the protein sources I can do that could work for me that I can tolerate, that I'm not going to vomit up? It's sometimes a very gentle protein powder, a rice protein powder, a sprouted grain protein powder might do the trick. For some people a good organic whey protein powder is easily digestible and you can use that to make the smoothie of your choice. So I'm always going to look for okay, what can you tolerate? This isn't about all your little nice personal preferences right now. This is about you helping build a healthy child, plain and simple.
Lindsey: Plain and simple. I love that. Can I touch on counting, counting like numbers? And I mentioned this earlier, counting macros, counting anything. And this I guess relates to everything, but I for one have never been somebody that steps on the scale or measures food or any of that, but how do you approach women that are very adamant about the number game?
Marc: Unless you're in a specific athletic path, I don't know, such as let's say maybe a weightlifting fitness competition where everybody is getting real specific about counting their macronutrients, part of it, how do you tell anybody anything? It really depends on why I'm in a conversation with them. If somebody is sitting there obsessing all day long counting calories and macros, do I wish they would do that? No. Would I say anything to them? Probably not, no. I don't say anything to anybody until they ask me, quite frankly.
So I'm saying from a professional standpoint, unless I'm engaging with somebody who's seeking my advice, I don't give it. If somebody is a client of mine and they're counting their macronutrients and they're here to see me for a specific reason or maybe they're here to see me to lose weight, maybe they're here to see me to stop overeating or stop binge eating or stop emotional eating, then there's an interesting conversation then. Then I have some ammo with which to inspire them with around why I don't think they should be counting in order to be healthy. You will find no animal in nature counting its macronutrients. They don't need to do that; humans don't need to do that. The body changes every day. The body's needs change on a daily basis. To think that there is some magic number that everybody has that is going to have any form of consistency that if you hit those numbers you've done something magical, I've never seen it. I just say like show me. It's nonsensical.
Now, does that mean it's not an interesting strategy? Sure, it's interesting. And if you want to do it, great. But if it's making your life miserable and if it makes the life of the people around you miserable because you have a disordered relationship with food and you're obsessing about food and obsessing about your macronutrients and obsessing about counting them such that your primary relationship is with your obsession and not with your child or not with your partner or not with your family or what's most important to you, then I think you got a problem that you need to address. But again, I don't say anything to anybody unless they ask me because I don't personally like to try to convince people, "Oh, hi you. I see you counting macronutrients. Don't do that."
Lindsey: No, I just love what you just said. That's great. So if somebody wanted to learn from you and learn all the wonderful things that you do, what is the next step that they would do?
Marc: Thanks for asking, Lindsey. Next step, go to our website, psychologyofeating.com. We have a free video gift that you could sign up for and start to learn about our work. You can explore our website. You can learn about the program we have for the public called Transform Your Relationship with Food. That's for anybody who wants to take their relationship with food to the next level. That's an online training. And then we have our professional training. If you want to actually do this work professionally and help other people in some of the issues we've been talking about, you can learn about our professional training there. And if you have questions, you could just email us at email@example.com. We have a ton of free resources, videos. I do a podcast where I work with a client who I've never met before and move them forward in one session. So we got a lot of great resources for sure.
Lindsey: Awesome. And do you have social media that people can find you?
Marc: Absolutely. If you go into Facebook universe and just plug in Institute for the Psychology of Eating, we have a great fan page. We have a huge following on social media in Facebook, in Instagram, Twitter. But if you start out with Facebook and if you go at our website, you'll see links to all our social media. But Facebook is where we tend to do a lot of our outreach. I do a lot of Facebook Lives there. So again, there's a ton of free stuff there.
Lindsey: Brilliant. And if you could leave our audience with one piece of advice or a pearl of wisdom, and most of these that are listening are in that motherhood transition, what would you advise them on?
Marc: Learn to relax more into your journey. There's a lot of things to figure out, there's a lot of things to stress about, and the more we relax into the places where we normally get anxious and we normally get perfectionist and we normally get stressed, when you relax you actually change your physiology. When you become a calmer, more accepting human, you actually change your physiology from a stress state to a relaxation state, which impacts everything from weight to appetite, to nutrient assimilation, to calorie burning, to overall health and immunity and happiness. So we can never underestimate the power of not just relaxing in terms of meditating, but I mean relaxing into our journey, learning how to celebrate our journey more.
Lindsey: That's good, celebrate the journey. I like that. Well, thank you so much for giving me some of your time today. I really appreciate it.
Marc: I loved your questions, I loved this conversation and I feel very honored Dr. Lindsey, so thank you so much.
Lindsey: Thank you so much, Marc, and I might be out to Boulder to find you very soon.
Lindsey: Enjoy your weekend. Thank you again.
All right, everyone, I hope you enjoyed that interview with Marc David, who is the man, the myth, the legend behind the Institute for the Psychology of Eating. Be sure to go to psychologyofeating.com and just dive in to that website because there is a ton of information there. And like he said, there's free information. They do stuff on Facebook all the time. So just get lost in it.
If you work in the nutritional world, whether you're a clinical certified nutritionist, nutritional therapy, anything, I would strongly encourage you to take the professional program. Melissa Hemphill who is part of our BIRTHFIT senior leadership team has done all the training and she is one of the eating psychology coaches. She is just a brilliant, brilliant person. She offers consultations via birthfit.com. So if you are at all interested in setting up a consultation with Melissa, you can do that by going to the BIRTHFIT website and then you would go to the Education tab. You will find that at the top. And then under the Education tab you would just scroll down to Consultations and then you would schedule one with Melissa Hemphill for eating psychology.
That is a ton of information, and I don't know if I have one wrap-up kind of summary, but as Marc said at the end, slow down, embrace the journey, enjoy it, celebrate it all. Bye. [0:48:23] End of Audio